Podcast: 69. Lucas Stewart - Social enterprise startups, safe cycling, and better civic spending
Lucas Stewart has many titles. Presently he is the Executive Director of The WRENCH in Winnipeg. Previously he has been involved in the founding and development of a variety of social enterprises including Purpose Construction (Previously Manitoba Green Retrofit), and Senior Partner with Encompass Coop. His driving goal has been to help reunite families through providing good stable work while building sustainable social enterprises.
In this interview, we talk about his current work with The WRENCH, how they fit their impacts into their operations, and how they build their culture. We also discuss Lucas’ professional journey, through various startups and attempts. Finally, we talk about an idea called Outcomes Purchasing, which is a way of funding innovative solutions to difficult problems by funding them in a similar way to other government services.
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Scripted, recorded and edited by: Matthew Rempel
Additional Editing by: Kailan Janzen
Music provided by: Envato
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Automatic Transcript:
Matthew Rempel Voiceover (00:00:03):
Hello and welcome to Strategy Made Simple. My name is Matthew Rempel and today I'm going to be talking with somebody who has had lots of experience in building new social enterprises.
(00:00:13):
A big part of our conversation in this episode is around his journey to where he is now, the many different enterprises he's been a part of, and the risks that were taken in order to get there. We're also going to talk about the steps that he takes to reduce that risk and also some big ideas about how we can change the way we spend money in government and in the public sphere. Initially this interview was about him stepping into a new role as executive director of the Wrench in Winnipeg, and he's been there a time of recording about three or four months and we will get there. It's a part of the story, but there's also a lot more to take in. Before we started recording, we were talking about his work with Encompass co-op, a group of people that are trying to work at changing the way we spend money in the public sphere and make social enterprise a bigger part of the economy. I hope you enjoy it. My guest today is,
Lucas Stewart (00:01:04):
My name is Lucas Stewart, I'm the executive director at the WRENCH in Winnipeg. I'm also a partner with Encompass co-op also out of Winnipeg.
Matthew Rempel (00:01:14):
So we were just talking about Encompass and you said you were working together with Shaun Loney for about three years. I know that was Encompass,
Lucas Stewart (00:01:21):
That was encompass. Is
Matthew Rempel (00:01:23):
That wrapped up or?
Lucas Stewart (00:01:24):
No, but it's changing. Okay. It's going to be different. I've worked with mean, my experience with Shaun and I worked together very closely for 12 years and then super closely for the last three years. Yeah,
Matthew Rempel (00:01:43):
Okay. Yeah.
Lucas Stewart (00:01:44):
So it'll just be something different. We have to wait until people are ready to catch up with what we're selling. We're a little bit ahead of the times, I think
Matthew Rempel (00:01:57):
Time to educate people on how things could be.
Lucas Stewart (00:02:00):
That's all we want. All we wanted, just how things could be. And it's the same thing people intuitively... Nobody ever said no to us, right? We wouldn't sit down and agree that we could roughly anticipate what was going to happen and what that would look like. And then we could also anticipate and if we made a change, we could affect that trajectory,
Matthew Rempel (00:02:33):
Get a bit ahead of the curve before things are in set in stone, get
Lucas Stewart (00:02:36):
Ahead of the curve. And the good thing that thing that we were talking about was that we could, by implementing a change now, we could anticipate not having to continue to do what we have been doing and we couldn't get different. And everyone agreed <laugh>, no one ever said no, and then that would be the end of it. Everyone would just leave it at that. So I think it was just maybe a lack of courage and for the most part I think it was just a lack of accountability for managing public money, to be honest. The way that the books work, anticipate the future.
Matthew Rempel (00:03:34):
So existing systems are preventing the structures you're hoping to be building. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah I'd like to come back to that later because I feel like there's a lot more to that conversation
Lucas Stewart (00:03:46):
For sure. We could could have you do a separate podcast just on full cost accounting.
Matthew Rempel (00:03:52):
Maybe we will. But for now I'd like to focus in on your work at the WRENCH. So for how I understand it, the impact of the WRENCH is trying to both make biking more accessible and by providing the skills to people so that they can repair their own bikes. Is that correct?
Lucas Stewart (00:04:11):
Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty good.
Matthew Rempel (00:04:13):
Okay. So then how do you change those impacts together into your operations? Sure. Is the work that you're doing?
Lucas Stewart (00:04:20):
Sure. How I think about it is the WRENCH, the IS two kind of mandates and the first one is about skills and being able to attain the skills to make your bike safe and to keep it that way. We also wanted to make it so that biking can be your first choice for getting around. And then the second mandate really is around is an environmental recycling mandate. And that a lot of energy goes into building these bikes in the first place and they should not be disposable and they, they treat it that way. So there's a lot of incredible amount of energy that goes into building, building those things. And it is extremely wasteful for them just to get scrapped because people don't understand how to change out a chain or the tire's flat and it's tricky to change a tire.
Matthew Rempel (00:05:27):
So almost falling into the broader consumer trap of every 10 years need a new bike instead of just really knowing how to properly tune it up and keep it running well.
Lucas Stewart (00:05:36):
Yeah, exactly. And there's a lot I, there's just a bunch of things that you can do that people just don't know they can do to keep a bike running, right? If it's something very serious and your bike's all really messed up, take it to a shop and those guys have really specific tools that not everyone has and that's fine. Pay them a fair, pay them a fair rate and they'll give your bike back together. So that's
Matthew Rempel (00:06:04):
It. But for the more everyday kind of things, for
Lucas Stewart (00:06:07):
The everyday kind of stuff that will allow you to make sure that your bike is safe and that you can get from A to B, right? Those are skills we want that everyone should know how to do.
Matthew Rempel (00:06:20):
So then the training aspects, helping people learn how to maintain their own bicycles contributes towards that culture of if something happens, well I'm out on the road somewhere, I can just deal with it. Yeah. Okay. So then also I know you deal with the affordability and just the ability to have your own bike. How does that all fit in together?
Lucas Stewart (00:06:42):
Well, so there was just a very obvious opportunity in that all these bikes just needed some work to put them, them serviceable
Matthew Rempel (00:06:54):
Meaning
Lucas Stewart (00:06:55):
All there was. So in our landfill, at our landfill and at these, there's three recycling depots in Winnipeg, people just leave their bike there, four recycling, they're done with it or they themselves are just done with it and they just let it go for back into either the recycling stream or the waste stream. So there was just an opportunity. These bikes just had, they needed work and they were there, the material was there and being able to put them back on the road and do so at a price point that is achievable. So the WRENCH does a good job of that. And we can do that and we can do that while providing and creating jobs.
Matthew Rempel (00:07:45):
Go on.
Lucas Stewart (00:07:46):
So I mean bike for to fix these B, people sometimes think that the bikes are free because they were just sitting there. It takes some doing to rejuvenate the bikes.
Matthew Rempel (00:07:59):
<laugh> one could say
Lucas Stewart (00:08:01):
It takes some doing. Anyway, we're set up to do that and we can process all those bikes and we hire folks and create jobs to do that. Right. Yeah.
Matthew Rempel (00:08:12):
I've had the pleasure of being in the shop where all this work happens and you have racks upon racks of junker bikes that you're going to tear apart and take all the useful pieces out of just so that you can sort them so that they're ready there when you need them for a bike that can be salvaged.
Lucas Stewart (00:08:26):
Exactly. Yeah.
Matthew Rempel (00:08:29):
So that's how all those different pieces fit together. Is there anything I'm missing about that environmental angle feeding into the accessibility angle? Feeding into the knowledge?
Lucas Stewart (00:08:38):
Well, the main point I think is about making biking accessible, right? So the things that we can do I, we can do directly is we can teach people to fix their bikes and give people the skills to do with maintain their bikes with confidence. And then the other component about that is about learning to ride and having the confidence to ride in Winnipeg. Given the level of our bike bike network, we've made progress for sure. We've made progress, we got a long way to go. We do. And so while that progress is continuing, being able to navigate from where you are to want to go and do that safely, right? And it should not just be for right now, a lot of the time people would describe it as those are the strong and the brave,
Matthew Rempel (00:09:43):
Especially if you're talking winter bikes.
Lucas Stewart (00:09:45):
But if you're talking winter bikes and anyway, it doesn't need, we shouldn't characterize it that way. We should. Those are the folks who are comfortable and the, they're just comfortable because they have experience and they know what they're doing. So we want to be able to offer programming that allows people to build confidence. So just knowing how to ride it in traffic, knowing how to map out your route from where you to want to go how to lock your bike up when you get there, and how to do that at night and how to do that when the weather's increment. So there's a bunch of stuff in the last time, the last time any of us got some concentrated education about that, we were maybe five or six and that was it. So
Matthew Rempel (00:10:45):
Yeah, usually a little bike training in elementary school and that's all you get.
Lucas Stewart (00:10:48):
And at that time we were told to stay on the sidewalk because the road was dangerous
Matthew Rempel (00:10:54):
Because the infrastructure was even worse than it is now because
Lucas Stewart (00:10:56):
The infrastructure was worse. Fuck there. And we were bad at biking when traffic when we were six. I understand that. I have a four year old, if she strays into the street, I tell her to get back on the sidewalk because she's bad at biking on the street. And cars are fast and we still have 50 kilometers on residential streets and that's tough. So not worth the risk for me
Matthew Rempel (00:11:27):
For sure.
Lucas Stewart (00:11:28):
But when you're 1212, I don't want to drive her around all the time. She doesn't want me to drive her around all the time. Nope. No. So I'm not want that. It's kind of a trap that people fall into and where you become the term is soccer mom <laugh>,
Matthew Rempel (00:11:48):
Right? Absolutely.
Lucas Stewart (00:11:50):
And that means, so you can sign your kid up sports, that means you have to go to sports too. And
Matthew Rempel (00:11:56):
The joke in my family, there are three of us boys and was, they were the taxi service all evening because three different locations to bring people. Just impossible.
Lucas Stewart (00:12:03):
Just impossible. So I want her to be able to go to soccer. I, I'll go and watch her play soccer cause it's fun thing to do. But if she wants to go and see friends, if she wants to go and do a thing when she's 12 and after she's 12, I want her to have some independence.
Matthew Rempel (00:12:23):
So then what are some of the specific things, the actual day-to-day things you're doing at the WRENCH in order to try to push that forward?
Lucas Stewart (00:12:32):
So we have developed courses for kids, for children in the repairs, on the repair stuff and on the riding stuff in order for them to have developed skills and that it's supervised and there's instructors who will coach people through all that.
Matthew Rempel (00:12:55):
So this is rent staff heading into a location where there's a bunch of kids or youth,
Lucas Stewart (00:13:00):
They come to us right now. Okay. Yeah. They come to us right now, the type of stuff that we're doing especially around riding, really should be done, should be covered in school. And as part of either phys ed or some divisions have outdoor, outdoor phys ed the actual being able to balance on a bike and go fast and stop and turn and do all that the, that's like a phys ed type of thing. And that should be really taught to younger children, to children. And then later on when they're youth in they're 14, 13, 14 in phys ed, they should be taught to do urban cycling. Yeah. And those skills are, in my opinion, much more relevant to our most people who live in cities especially in Manitoba where we have a one big city right now and is much more useful of a life skill than badminton, <laugh>, things like that.
Matthew Rempel (00:14:18):
Absolutely. Yeah. So then who are the particular groups, you've mentioned children and youth so far. Are there any particular groups that the WRENCH is primarily trying to reach?
Lucas Stewart (00:14:31):
So we're, that's a funny question. That's not a funny question. That's an interesting question. In trying to enact our broader mission around getting it for people to bike around and being their first choice for getting around, it's important that we reach out to people who are vehemently against that.
Matthew Rempel (00:14:57):
You got to make everyone comfortable for this to actually happen.
Lucas Stewart (00:15:00):
Yeah. And it's funny. So I believe this is something new that I'm bringing because there's a bit of a resistance <laugh> to incorporating people who are not super into our stuff. And because it's like there's some convincing to do and those folks are not immediately supportive of what we're doing. They think we're going to, I don't know, use resources that are or get in their way or I don't know, make their commute a little longer, things like that. Biking culture in Winnipeg is for a long time spent the majority of its time being really scrappy and having to push and fight for what they have. So what we've gotten so far and we're we've made progress. So to go further we really needed to make it to go further. We really need to make it more of a priority for everybody and that means appealing to everybody. So I think we converted the people who were ready to be converted and now we got to go get more people. We need more people in.
Matthew Rempel (00:16:23):
So then how are you trying to reach those people?
Lucas Stewart (00:16:25):
Oh, we're working on it.
Matthew Rempel (00:16:27):
I'm not assuming this is an easy task, but there are obviously some ways that you're thinking about that could invite people in to what has been historically a bit of a rebel group.
Lucas Stewart (00:16:37):
A bit of a rebel group. Yeah, A little punky
Matthew Rempel (00:16:42):
<laugh>. Just a little
Lucas Stewart (00:16:43):
Punky. I mean, as a sector there's lots of different things that we could be doing as a sector. We could also be coordinating more than we have been
Matthew Rempel (00:16:56):
Always.
Lucas Stewart (00:17:00):
I think the most important part is just to be non-judgmental. Right? I don't want to, if you tell somebody that they're wrong, that's not a great way to open that conversation. We want to make it fun and fun and easy as possible. Yeah. Mean that is about inviting people to events, to experience stuff, to remove barriers and to be supportive of success.
Matthew Rempel (00:17:35):
Do you have any particular examples of what an event that would remove barriers? Looks like
Lucas Stewart (00:17:40):
What bike Winnipeg does a, I'm going to give them a plug. They do great work.
Matthew Rempel (00:17:45):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Lucas Stewart (00:17:46):
They run these bike into bike to the future public open group rides in the summer and they take people for an hour and a half loop. It's family friendly, like a slow role. It's for to incorporate children and the bike, Winnipeg itself does a good job of about not being preachy about it. Many of the folks, the organizers are activists, right? Yeah, that's fair. They're
Matthew Rempel (00:18:21):
The people who want to make a change and they're going to bring the right people together to do it. So it makes sense that they're leading the charge in these events.
Lucas Stewart (00:18:27):
And we're encouraging people to see Winnipeg from a perspective of being able to ride around and just what that feels like because lots of people don't know. And so the interact, anybody who participates in those bike Winnipeg events come, comes away having had a good time having run over many potholes, right? Absolute having passed by a bunch of big vehicles who are going a little quick and being on infrastructure that is disconnected,
Matthew Rempel (00:19:13):
Right? Because in Winnipeg, the actual bike network doesn't connect very well to go places.
Lucas Stewart (00:19:18):
It doesn't get you all the way there. Yeah. It gets you these disjointed, right? So when you all, you will have the pleasure of riding on these separated pathways where you feel safe and then you'll have to make these bridged bridge these gaps where you don't feel safe,
Matthew Rempel (00:19:39):
Right? Cause then you're just on the city streets.
Lucas Stewart (00:19:41):
You're just on the city streets. Or maybe there's a similar white paint that's protecting you that doesn't
Matthew Rempel (00:19:47):
Bicycle gutters
Lucas Stewart (00:19:48):
The bicycle gut being in a bicycle gutter and that doesn't feel super secure. So having gone through that, the next time you were driving and you see a cyclist in the bike gutter, give him a little more room.
Matthew Rempel (00:20:07):
Because you can empathize.
Lucas Stewart (00:20:08):
You can empathize.
Matthew Rempel (00:20:11):
So it sounds like it's mostly for those intro moments, it's about getting people out of the perspective of if I'm going somewhere I have to drive and instead opening up to, I'm not just a driver, but I, I'm a person going somewhere. I'm just
Lucas Stewart (00:20:23):
A person going somewhere. And that's a very good way to frame it. And that's a much more healthy way to frame it. People get stuck in identity things. I am a driver. People don't identify as drivers, but I am a cyclist. And if that is, you just end up digging your heels in around that stuff. So if you're a person trying to get from your place to downtown to a Jets game or to the grocery store, then you're just a person going to the grocery store. Yeah. And we should be as a city and as Manitobans, encouraging people to provide options for people to get to groceries. Groceries starts back without risking their lives.
Matthew Rempel (00:21:14):
Also, I've got a credit that language back to bike Winnipeg as well. They've had a great influence on my thought around how to talk about people who are cycling. So then within the wrench, you're going to be dealing with some of these people who have now had these first experiences or some people who are coming in with no experience at all. What's your ideal path for their interactions with the wrench? What does the step-by-step look like with
Lucas Stewart (00:21:39):
That? Well, we just want, it's any kind of service where you just want it. You want to be clear about what your service is as best as possible. So they set their expectations properly in line with what you can probably deliver. And then just meeting those expectations and removing me as much friction as possible in that. So having a clear website, having a clear description of what your offerings are providing a visual visualization of how things are supposed to go things and how things will likely go. And then people just sign up for that. And then our job is to deliver that as best as possible.
Matthew Rempel (00:22:29):
So on the website, I noticed that workshops and classes are often the things that you're promoting. So that'd be an entry point. Where do people go from there? What's the next step for them?
Lucas Stewart (00:22:42):
Hopefully learn how to fix their bike, learn how to ride their bike, and they can do that at any level. So whether it's children or youth or adults. And for them to have that skill base and that level of confidence to be able to do that. And then they should go out in the world and tell their friends and then send more people, people our way. The WRENCH does a very good job of being a fun, nice place to be. We had a chat the other day around music at the shop and at the because I walked in the other day and there wasn't any music and I was like, what's going on? And they're like, well, anyway, they were doing something and just nobody changed the music in a while. And I said, go over to the tape deck and find some lofi, hip hop something and just put it on.
(00:23:48):
And it's supposed to be a fun place to be fun, supportive, having little wins all the time. And it's social, to be honest. People like you hang out with cool people and have this shared interest and people like to nerd out on that stuff. Sorry, people, people are very into bikes. Some people are really into bikes. There's a lot of variety and a lot of nuance that is possible to get to drill down to that level of nuance and form opinions on that stuff. And so there's constant chatter about whether what type of component component is better than, and that's great. And I'm glad they enjoy that level of detail. I think I just like being outside and I like not paying for parking and having an increased level of activity built into my day. And that just makes me, I think, 5% happier in my life. And I think it's good for the environment and my pocketbook, honestly my family would normally have the way our work schedules are and that we have a kid my family situation would normally have two cars and we don't have to have two cars because I am a confident biker and or a confident cyclist. And my wife is a confident cyclist. And so we make that work in it work all year. And I think that otherwise personal finance-wise be spending $600 a month more than what we're spending right now.
Matthew Rempel (00:25:46):
Yeah, I talked that with what I found when we changed to a no car household, I calculated it out and it saves us about $4,000 a year just in insurance and running costs of not having a car.
Lucas Stewart (00:26:01):
Not even just buying the thing in the first place.
Matthew Rempel (00:26:02):
Yeah. Yeah. No payments. The car was paid off. So just in keeping a car in our driveway, yeah. Would've cost about $2,000. Not even running it. Yes,
Lucas Stewart (00:26:12):
Just insurance.
Matthew Rempel (00:26:13):
So absolutely going bike, going active transits. And for myself, it's more of the public transit. I tend to walk and use bus more often, but yeah, that change is, it's both environmental, it's financial, but it also changes the way you see the city and the places around you that's going on a bit of a tent. We don't need to dive into the urbanism of Winnipeg. That's not what this is about. But yeah, you talked about the community at the WRENCH and when we were there, I noticed the bike stands where people are doing the work. They're set up in almost a small cluster of eight where there's space at head height to just see all the way across. You can see what everybody's working on. You mentioned the tape deck and there's this mound actual stacks of cassettes and it shocked me to see cassettes. Yeah, <laugh> this past year. But yeah, it really has the feeling of people coming together to just work on the things they care about and that there are other people who also care about that makes it a space where you can just sit and chat about the bikes or anything else as you're working.
(00:27:20):
Almost like I is the ideal of a third place. The place where you can just go and be in the hobby. Yeah.
Lucas Stewart (00:27:27):
Yeah, I would agree. The physical setup of the WRENCH is that does add a bunch to being a workplace that is, it is productive and it is nice to work in. Yeah. And you can be chatty if you want and can also keep working at the same time. But you can also just listen to music and fix bikes and that is awesome.
Matthew Rempel (00:28:01):
So then I'd like to ask a little bit more about your personal history. What brought you to working in social enterprise?
Lucas Stewart (00:28:08):
Oh, that's fun. In the beginning. So I studied conflict resolution in school and so I completed my practicum and it was not good. It was just not good. I think the major occupation for mediators, or a good chunk of their work is settling divorce out of court, which is a useful thing. And I'm glad that there are mediators who are up for that. I would just, it was not how I wanted to spend my days. Well, at the same time while I was in school, I worked for Child and Family Services and I did overnights in hotels. When we used to do that I did that because I'm a helping kind of guy and I'm good with kids and I thought I could help those kids. So I worked with teenage boys and I very quickly, it was immediate realized that I wasn't the right person to be helping those kids. Those kids needed their moms and dads. They needed their families and their families were not available, I think for legit reasons. But that was not helpful either. And their moms and dads were not generally, I think it was a stability thing. And I said, I still wanted to help those kids, so why don't I go and try to help their moms and dads.
Matthew Rempel (00:30:00):
Okay.
Lucas Stewart (00:30:01):
And the concepts and practice of mediation and the study of conflict resolution those same skills and thought processes lend themselves pretty readily to sales and to business. So because good business is about providing people with good solutions, solving problems,
Matthew Rempel (00:30:28):
Listening well to what people need,
Lucas Stewart (00:30:30):
Listening well to <laugh>, what people need and not just what they want. So what you really want is to get what you need. So to be able to structure things to help people get what they need and in any kind of, it's very applicable. So I went from university, I went to Build and Build in Winnipeg. And so I worked there for three years. And then I went to Man Green Retrofit after that.
Matthew Rempel (00:31:06):
Right? Yeah. You were one of the founding members of mgr, right? Yeah. Okay.
Lucas Stewart (00:31:11):
Yeah. And I showed up to build I was at BUILD a year before Shaun and then Shaun came and then we were able to kick things up a notch.
Matthew Rempel (00:31:22):
Right. So while you were at build, what was the role you were doing there?
Lucas Stewart (00:31:30):
Well, to start, when I first started my job, my first job was to install like 200 toilets.
Matthew Rempel (00:31:38):
Okay, so you were right there. Oh yeah. In the work.
Lucas Stewart (00:31:40):
Yeah. And I did, that was my entry point. And I installed 200 toilets as part of their water efficiency program. And then I taught somebody else how to do that. And I moved into the office and because the general manager before Shaun was very old school, he didn't have a computer. He was paper and pen, paper pen calculator and a phone and just like an old school contractor guy. Yeah. Big heart, good guy. Anyway, but I was good with computers and I could do, I can run an Excel spreadsheet and I can do math. And so I moved into the office, took over I did all the estimations and I did big bigger projects, lots of energy efficiency. It's called in Efficiency, Manitoba now, but it was born out of the low income programming that Mabo Hydro did. They used to
Matthew Rempel (00:32:48):
Have that AL efficiency work generally? Yeah. L e d lights fluorescence. At that time I would've assumed Fluor,
Lucas Stewart (00:32:53):
They had a whole water section that you could actually do with hydro. Anyway, that was all my numbers. Okay. Yeah. So I did, they adopted, I did all their homework and then they
Matthew Rempel (00:33:04):
Stole off your sheet.
Lucas Stewart (00:33:05):
We were happy to, happy for that to happen. When the contract came back with the pricing and stuff and it had a met up by letterhead on it, I was like, great, <laugh> accepted. We will do this for this price. Right. Thank you. Thank you. And that happened with water efficiency and their insulation. So attic, atan, basement and wall insulation, that was all turned out to be my pricing.
Matthew Rempel (00:33:31):
Right. Okay. So that was the transition from plumbing, insulation, toilets, yes. Into the office doing estimations, taking over the initial sales and estimations. Then you moved to purpose.
Lucas Stewart (00:33:46):
Yeah, so it's called Purpose Construction now, which is a way better name and nonprofits. And this is something that we learned along the way. You probably know this feel the same way too, that nonprofits are very bad at naming themselves. <laugh>
Matthew Rempel (00:34:00):
Branding and marketing is a distinct weak point. It's in the whole industry. And I hope to eventually make a small shift towards improving that.
Lucas Stewart (00:34:09):
So I that we made mistake too. So it was called Manitoba Green Retrofit. We called it MGR in the beginning. And that was a response to getting phone calls because we were build, at that time was the largest residential insulator in the province. We bought insulation by the semi truckload and we were insulating, we insulated thousands of homes in Winnipeg and we get phone calls from other people and who are not low income and weren't delivering service to low income people. And they're like, Hey, can you come insulate my stuff? And we'd have to say no, because we would ask our funder if, do you mind if we go and also do work for these other people? And they would say, that's not what you're funded for.
Matthew Rempel (00:35:07):
So the funding limitations,
Lucas Stewart (00:35:08):
The limitations of the funding arrangements that Bill had prevented us from fascinating. And then I couldn't take it one day, somebody called and they weren't from the city, they were from just outside the city. And like, I have a horse barn.
Matthew Rempel (00:35:26):
So that's a big job.
Lucas Stewart (00:35:27):
It was a big job. It was a big job. And it was a horse barn. And they qualified, they've qualified for a different hydro program that wasn't the low income file, but a different thing. And they're like, you guys are the biggest thing of the problems. Can you come do my job? And I said, I really want to come do your job. And so I told Shaun, I'm like, we're just going to do this. And he said, we asked, we can't. And I'm like, we, I'm, let's not tell anybody. I was just going to do it anyway. Cause we were getting four phone calls a week and oh, it's so sad. It was so sad because BUILDS was funded. So we had limited funding, but we had 75 resumes on our desk from everybody's cousin that worked there. And they were also struggling. And so the job is to, what we were trying to do, this is what we're trying to do, is we're just trying to help moms and dads.
(00:36:47):
And the situation was is that we had a thing, a good thing that people were willing to pay money for. And I had 75 resumes of people who were good to go and they needed our help. And I had some bureaucrat quote me a something and said sorry. And I was like, ah, I can't take it anymore. So I, so I said, we're just going to do it. And Shaun said, we're not doing it, we're getting too much trouble. And I said, I'm going to do it anyway. And he said, the only way we're doing that is if we start a new company
Matthew Rempel (00:37:29):
Making something arms length
Lucas Stewart (00:37:30):
Makes. And we were in a hallway, in tight hallway and I was fine. And he said, fine. And then we parted ways for what, 15 minutes and came back and was like, okay, can we go to the company's office and we'll go do this? And then we went and the next day we went to the company's office and filled up paperwork and we paid, I think it was $200. And we selected, called around, we got three board members for, we said just for the first year got the
Matthew Rempel (00:38:03):
Minimum requirements to hit the
Lucas Stewart (00:38:06):
I pulled corporation, we pulled bylaws, we pulled a set of bylaws from something else, we pulled it all together and the next week we got the name reservation came through and we a new, and then we went to the bank and opened up a bank account. And I called the horse barn guy and I said,
Matthew Rempel (00:38:26):
I can take your job
Lucas Stewart (00:38:27):
Now I can take your job. And it was $28,000 was that single job. So I gave a letter of I got a secondment from build, right? They laid me off right or whatever, said I could come back if it didn't work. But they gave me a, and then I said, okay, well I'm going to take that this time and go do this job. And oh, can I rent your insulation equipment for five days? And oh yeah, can you also lay off those five people over there that those five people and I picked them and they're going to come with me, keep your funding, they're going to come on my payroll.
Matthew Rempel (00:39:19):
Because then it's just a separate entity.
Lucas Stewart (00:39:21):
It's just a separate entity. And so we just went back and forth like that for three months. And then I had a kitty to, I didn't need to borrow money or anything like that. I did everything on credit to start. It was Oh yeah. And I took a loan from Bill too. <laugh>. Right?
Matthew Rempel (00:39:46):
Fantastic.
Lucas Stewart (00:39:47):
Yeah. Okay. No. So we wrote a loan agreement because
Matthew Rempel (00:39:49):
They'll have assets and you can contract, you could write a contract that says, yeah, repayment
Lucas Stewart (00:39:53):
Plan. Okay, repayment plan. So I borrowed, I borrowed 25,000 and the terms were two months <laugh>, I'll give it back. And so we did. And that was how that went. And then Bill would continue to get phone calls. They would say, I'm just going to pass you over. And I had a desk and I would take the contract, I would go and get BUILD employees. And what happened was is we made room. So we made room for new people to come in to build
Matthew Rempel (00:40:31):
Because then you're taking some of the people who have been trained who have gone through the whole BUILD process, then they have a more permanent
Lucas Stewart (00:40:39):
Job. They had a more, and they more permanent job. And the folks that were a good fit for me, if you graduated from build and Build was like six months, just funded for six months at that time. And somebody thought the thinking was after six months you would be good to go and you could pull up bootstraps and just go
Matthew Rempel (00:41:00):
No other systemic problems.
Lucas Stewart (00:41:01):
No other systemic problems. And that did happen for 5% of the people. Sure, sure. Three 5% of the people after six months if school was in the cards for you, you should go to school, continue continuing school. If you could get a job with another insulation company or something else in the private sector, you should go do that. But what happened was is that there, people needed more than six months, but I knew that they were good at their jobs at build. There was a legit job for somebody to feed an insulation machine. And I needed somebody who knew how to measure work the hoses and stuff like that. But they needed more time. And I was able to be that second stage more permanent. We didn't have any funding so I didn't have to let anybody go at first. Some arbitrary time. And we had a thing that we could do.
Matthew Rempel (00:42:03):
So essentially you built a pipeline. We
Lucas Stewart (00:42:05):
Just built a pipeline through
Matthew Rempel (00:42:06):
Build into MGR so that any jobs that build couldn't within their funding agreements. Yeah, you could just pass 'em off the same people get the work. Yeah.
Lucas Stewart (00:42:14):
You
Matthew Rempel (00:42:15):
Essentially borrowed the seed money and then got the first couple jobs enough to keep the thing running. Yep. Wow. Yeah. Okay. So MGR is running and
Lucas Stewart (00:42:27):
So
Matthew Rempel (00:42:27):
At this point, mgr, you're time. There's concluded what next where move
Lucas Stewart (00:42:33):
There. Well, I just want to tell you because it worked backwards too. Oh, okay. Yeah, it worked backwards too because insulation wasn't like great business and Hydro and Hydros programming really helped do that. And if they brought it back in a significant way, it would do it again anyway. But we found that there were still more people who needed work. And so MGR was working with we started working with landlords and one of the larger landlords and we were insulating and doing that stuff. And then we also found that they needed painting and they needed all this other stuff. And they had rental, like TPA housing at that time had vacant rental units that were just sitting because they couldn't get them turned over for a number of reasons.
Matthew Rempel (00:43:33):
Turned over meeting some renovations, some paint patch work,
Lucas Stewart (00:43:35):
Get them ready to be re-rented. Their average turnaround time was like 108 days between someone leaving and somebody coming in and they were wanting to get their people into their units, people housing. We've had a housing crisis for a long time. So anyway, so started doing work for them and there was just a ton of work. And so I needed additional people to grow mgr. So I went and I said, well, I've got this other connection here. These guys do great programming. This work is actually fairly repetitive. I think it would be a good fit. So I developed all the pricing, right? And then I went back and I said, I got this. You got to let these folks also come do work and this is what you're going to pay them. And then it kind of just happened. So then BUILD started doing interior renos.
Matthew Rempel (00:44:36):
Oh, okay. Yeah. Is that when it started to be more than the training program, but in addition it had the fee for service work.
Lucas Stewart (00:44:43):
So that kind of developed later. Okay. Yeah. The fee for service work came online for build once the idea of social enterprise started to take hold.
Matthew Rempel (00:44:52):
Okay. Yeah, there's probably more on that. I have an interview back in the backlog with Art Lad when he was the I think it's executive director at build. So there's more on that story there. But after mgr, what was next?
Lucas Stewart (00:45:10):
While I was at mgr we were doing lots. Shaun and I had taken that dynamic past stuff back and forth by going to the company's office and building things, doing stuff like that. We've been doing that reasonably frequently. We would go and do something new every 18 months. Right? So after a while, and we told people about it and we said, we're having a lot of success. And people came, we were asked us, how are you doing that? So we said, it's best if you come and see. So we would have people from all across the country come and we ended up being these semi-professional tour guides,
Matthew Rempel (00:46:06):
Social enterprise tour guides,
Lucas Stewart (00:46:07):
Social enterprise tour guides, let's see how it works. Come see how it works. I mean we were fine with that because what we are, we're pretty agnostic about, I'm not super pumped about water efficiency. I don't get very excited about wall insulation. Yeah,
Matthew Rempel (00:46:24):
It's important work that needs to get done,
Lucas Stewart (00:46:26):
But it's just work. I'm trying to get moms and dads stabilized so they can get their kids back. And I'm trying to do that in Winnipeg. And if somebody, but look, that situation exists across the country, so, and I can't be there to do it for them. We just need more stuff.
Matthew Rempel (00:46:45):
We need more people doing this work.
Lucas Stewart (00:46:46):
We need more people doing this work. And we somehow figure it out that you can just go and do it.
Matthew Rempel (00:46:56):
Surprising how many things work that way.
Lucas Stewart (00:46:58):
We were continually surprised and disappointed at the same time. And that other, like Shaun and Lucas, that smart, Shaun and Lucas are not that smart. And we say that to each other all the time, but we don't let people tell us no. And we just go and do stuff. And then we have a very good batting average, to be honest. We have a very good batting average and we take other steps along the way. We mitigate risk
Matthew Rempel (00:47:33):
Of course,
Lucas Stewart (00:47:34):
And if something doesn't work, we cut our losses. You have to. But we didn't dissuade us from trying. What has happened is we have these things blossom and we're also not pretty determined on what they are trying to get moms and dads jobs because that's a stabilizing factor. And then looking at the kids back.
Matthew Rempel (00:48:00):
Because in our current situation, jobs is income, income is housing income, is food security
Lucas Stewart (00:48:07):
A really base thing? And it's also a level of confidence and it's being proud of yourself. And it's also those kids seeing their moms and dads get up and go to work every day. And then that is something that is very healthy and that the kid will want and strive to do themselves.
Matthew Rempel (00:48:28):
Creating a culture that's handed down through the family. Yeah.
Lucas Stewart (00:48:31):
Yeah. So that's what we're trying to do. And we need more help. So we invite people to come and tour and we become these tour guides. And then after a while we found that our skill sets are in the founding, in the getting of go, getting going and refinement is not our skillset. I will
Matthew Rempel (00:48:59):
Eyes with that. Yeah.
Lucas Stewart (00:49:01):
All other people can get excited about that. I'm not, and I won't take any go for any of the systems I built either. No, because they didn't exist before.
Matthew Rempel (00:49:10):
So. Well, I mean, you've got to make something that just barely works so that you can start. And there's a totally different skill set with creating something new compared to maintaining something that exists and improving upon it. And I'm definitely in that first camp as well, building things, making something new that is just going to work enough to get towards where we're going. Yeah, I love that space.
Lucas Stewart (00:49:35):
Right on. So Shaun and I would tell you that we're entrepreneurs and then once the thing is going well enough, it's healthy for us to shift them over to business managers.
Matthew Rempel (00:49:47):
So that happened with Build that happened with mgr.
Lucas Stewart (00:49:50):
Yeah. Yeah. It happened. Happened with everything. And that's a normal part of our rhythm as we go around and we spot a gap and are able to vision how to make use of that gap and then have mitigate our risk and try and then if it works, we build it, really build it out and then capitalize on it and then somebody else can come in and take it to the next level, like mine, the last 10 and refine it and do that stuff. That's great.
Matthew Rempel (00:50:31):
Yeah. Make it something that survives beyond when you're involved. Yeah. And that makes the story of AKI Energy make a lot more sense to me because up until now I've been wondering why would you leave in something that's working and making those changes you're hoping for, but if that's your goal is to make the new systems so that other people can manage them, it makes perfect sense. Yes.
Lucas Stewart (00:50:51):
Yeah. That's a better role. That's a better role for those folks. We, Shaun and I, Shaun and I wouldn't be happy. We wouldn't be happy doing refining, right? Anyway, so we are our happiest when we are spotting the gaps, noticing the, we we're just noticing the gaps and then developing something to address
Matthew Rempel (00:51:15):
It. So that's what Encompass has been all about.
Lucas Stewart (00:51:17):
So Encompass was designed to be a space for people who were running social enterprise as practitioners. And we went to, because we got invited and we went to conferences and stuff, social enterprise conferences, 2000 people there. And it was hard to meet people who were actually running things. Lots of people studying, lots of people funding lots of, I'm like, but where are the people with the payroll problems? Right?
Matthew Rempel (00:51:50):
So you're reading all the people who are doing work around social enterprise, but not the social entrepreneurs or the social enterprise managers.
Lucas Stewart (00:51:56):
And our goal is to make more of these things. And so we needed to find the people who were capable of founding things and getting them going and doing the scrappy stuff. Yeah. So those people at those conferences can be found. They are in the lobby. <laugh> on the phone solving a problem. Yeah.
Matthew Rempel (00:52:21):
Okay. <laugh> from mgr. sounds like you had a bunch of other initiatives that you started up spun out. Let other people continue them on. Maybe you can send me a list later and I'll include them in the description or something.
Lucas Stewart (00:52:34):
Well, we did killed a lot of bedbugs.
Matthew Rempel (00:52:37):
Oh yeah, right. Bedbugs was part of that part. The mgr. Yeah. Okay. So bedbug removal and dealing with infestations. Yeah. Okay.
Lucas Stewart (00:52:46):
It was awesome. Yeah.
Matthew Rempel (00:52:48):
Acki energy and AKI foods, that sounds like it was part of that whole cycle.
Lucas Stewart (00:52:53):
Yeah, we did temporary labor for a little bit and we leased vehicles for a while.
Matthew Rempel (00:53:03):
Okay.
Lucas Stewart (00:53:04):
Just whatever it was. The idea was was just to give us the resources, the flexibility and the latitude just to move on an opportunity while mitigating risk that would let us move closer to our goal.
Matthew Rempel (00:53:28):
And that on those many different initiatives has now brought you to being executive director at the WRENCH. Various Interesting. I love hearing how that trajectory, because this is becoming an executive director of an established organization, is a very different situation.
Lucas Stewart (00:53:44):
It is different. So
Matthew Rempel (00:53:46):
What made you choose this role?
Lucas Stewart (00:53:49):
What made me choose this role? I needed to do something different. The goal of Encompass changed.
Matthew Rempel (00:53:59):
Oh, okay.
Lucas Stewart (00:54:01):
Because Shaun and I, Shaun did it first because Shaun lives like six, seven years in the future. And he explained what the future was like and I was like, holy crap, we have to do that now. And so Shaun and I spent three year, three years talking with people across the country about how we can literally solve a bunch of our really sticky, endemic problems that are super expensive and just so persistent and stuff to do with stuff to do with justice and stuff to do with homelessness and has it implications in healthcare and the environmental stuff. And it's really, really powerful. And people did not get it. Maybe they got it, maybe they were too chicken. There was some other else in place that was preventing it. I think maybe it's a flaw. There might be a serious flaw in how we either do politics with a four year election cycle or
Matthew Rempel (00:55:19):
So these systemic, there's broader issues.
Lucas Stewart (00:55:22):
Yeah. There's something that prevents us from acting in our own best interest. Okay. And so Shaun and I were talking about just doing stuff in our own best interest and then saving a bunch of money at the same time.
Matthew Rempel (00:55:36):
This is the stuff he's detailing in the beautiful bailouts.
Lucas Stewart (00:55:38):
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean it's, it's about looking at how we spend our money in more of a full cost accounting way.
Matthew Rempel (00:55:47):
Bringing in the externalities, the things that otherwise we don't count
Lucas Stewart (00:55:51):
Or mean. Not even externalities because externalities is a whole other issue. But just counting things that you counting things this year or recognize them this year because you're going to count them next year.
Matthew Rempel (00:56:07):
Okay.
Lucas Stewart (00:56:08):
Interesting. If you think about it like that. So,
Matthew Rempel (00:56:12):
So if you make a change now, that'll affect hospitalization rates next year,
Lucas Stewart (00:56:16):
Next.
Matthew Rempel (00:56:16):
Yeah. Accounting for some of that.
Lucas Stewart (00:56:18):
Yes. Okay. So it's about pulling future expense,
Matthew Rempel (00:56:23):
Right? Not kicking the can down the
Lucas Stewart (00:56:24):
Road anymore. Not kicking the can down the road anywhere. Cause you, yeah, if you recognize that you're going to spend a million dollars a year, you spend a million dollars this year on a thing the last year you spent a million dollars on the same thing and the year before same next year, we probably think we're going to spend a million dollars on that on. So just project that out. Don't, not even too far <laugh>. Just like three, four years. And then just recognize that if you know how you could do something different that would save you money on this thing that you're planning on spending money on. So how does that look? So you said that you save $400 a month riding a bicycle, right? Yeah. The reason you say you save it is because otherwise you would be spending it on driving,
Matthew Rempel (00:57:22):
Right? Because we're working on loss aversion there. We're thinking I would've had to spend this much, and that hurts.
Lucas Stewart (00:57:28):
It should hurt. And I think of, you can think about it in the positive too, right? So I now have $400 extra, right? A month. So I don't know about you, but I bought I dunno what your bike is, your a regular pedal bike.
Matthew Rempel (00:57:46):
Oh yeah. It's just a standard. Just a hybrid.
Lucas Stewart (00:57:51):
Hybrid, hybrid. Nice. Getting round bike. Yeah. I haven't electric bike. And the reason I got that is and it was $2,000, but I feel like I sa by getting that electric bike, I saved $2,000. Do you know what I mean?
Matthew Rempel (00:58:12):
Right. Because then you don't have the car.
Lucas Stewart (00:58:13):
You don't have the car, but we're
Matthew Rempel (00:58:14):
Not even then counting the time you saved. Cause e-bikes are going to, you get you places faster and all of the other trips you wouldn't have made. So if the distance have been more of a hassle.
Lucas Stewart (00:58:24):
So if we are honest with ourselves and say, you know what, and maybe we need to wait for an inflection point. Maybe there was a point where you were like, I could get a car this year and if I get a car, I'm going to spend four. Or if I keep my car. So if you keep your car you're going to budget putting in your budget $400 a month this year, that would be $4,800. So in our mind, you can apply that to justice and health and the environment. Same thinking. And so what we are suggesting with outcomes purchasing is when we apply it to biking the point of biking is to be able to get to use it as transportation to get it around. And so I now have two options I can spend to get from A to B. I have my budget, my top line of my budget's, $4,800. I have other options in terms of DR in getting from A to B. Right? The car is 4,800. The bus is The bus is How much is the bus? 180 a month.
Matthew Rempel (00:59:36):
Oh, not even that much. Probably close to 80.
Lucas Stewart (00:59:40):
80. We'll call it a hundred. Sure. Okay. So that's 1200 bucks over a year. Yeah, over a year, right? Yeah. A bike, a nice bike, thousand bucks
Matthew Rempel (00:59:50):
Once,
Lucas Stewart (00:59:51):
One time this year. Just think about it. We're not even going to the future just this year. Right? Yeah. Nice bike. Thousand bucks. And in all of that, thinking, if you go with the car, the established budget and any other option you choose is you are, when Shaun and I say you're saving money, you really are saving money. Yeah. So I chose when I was, we need two adults in our house need to get around. We can either spend 440, 800 bucks on a car this year. I'm going to choose, my choice is going to be, I'm going to get an E-bike, going to spend two grand, get a nice e-bike, right? And I'm going to love that thing. So I feel like I got an eBay e-bike plus like 2,800 bucks is here
Matthew Rempel (01:00:50):
Because that's the extra money that's in the budget that wouldn't be there if the car was.
Lucas Stewart (01:00:54):
And that solves for Myran because the outcome that we're trying to solve for is transportation. So characterizing having that conversation and when people are listening to this podcast, I just explained this for 10 minutes, just straight and people are probably confused about it already. Just know that, know that the idea is that you are going to have a projected expense and then that does a thing that you should try to be solving for. Transportation, public safety
Matthew Rempel (01:01:28):
Fewer arrests.
Lucas Stewart (01:01:29):
Fewer arrests,
Matthew Rempel (01:01:31):
Fewer people spending a night in the hospital. Fewer
Lucas Stewart (01:01:33):
Like a hospital wait time, right? An emergency room, wait time. Just solve for the things you're actually trying to do. Right? Don't focus on the actual intervention. Just be like, I'm going to spend 300 million on public safety in Winnipeg this year to date. That has meant a lot of police officers, $300 million, right? But what we're purchasing when we're hiring those cops, and I'm a fan of cops, but we're trying to do is we're trying to purchase public safety.
Matthew Rempel (01:02:08):
And yeah, cops have a very important role. There are other options as well.
Lucas Stewart (01:02:13):
I want us to consider other options in the pursuit of the outcome of public safety. Yeah.
Matthew Rempel (01:02:20):
So that has been a digression for the <laugh> purpose of Encompass. Yeah. Had been shifting. Also, if you want more information on the out coast purchasing, I actually did an interview with Shaun about three and a half years ago when that was all kicking off. Right on. So yeah, there's more info there as well. I also can link to the book
Lucas Stewart (01:02:44):
If anybody, it's a great resource also, if anybody wants to contact me with a summary that is more direct and effi and effective than that 10 minute thing that I just did, I would be really, really pleased to have a conversation about the <laugh>
Matthew Rempel (01:03:01):
Just to try tighten up the summary, just
Lucas Stewart (01:03:04):
To tighten it up.
Matthew Rempel (01:03:07):
So that was the shifting purpose of Encompass. Yeah. Which led to you.
Lucas Stewart (01:03:13):
Sorry. So we just had that conversation across the country in a number of different ways. We did focus on justice because it's very expensive, however much you slice the pie, it's like 50,000 bucks to keep people in jail. And there's a known portion of the population that just comes in and out of jail that the intervention of jail does not do what it's supposed to do.
Matthew Rempel (01:03:39):
Yes. Where jail is almost more of a housing expense for them than anything else.
Lucas Stewart (01:03:43):
The idea behind the idea idea behind putting somebody in jail is so that they don't want to go, so they don't go back to jail. And for a good chunk of the population that is intervention in terms of providing public safety is not effective, or sorry, it is effective to a point about 20% of the time. And it has a cost. So what we would propose is just taking other options that would achieve that same amount. And the total budget that you get to spend is 50 grand a year and you have to beat 20% effect effectiveness rate.
Matthew Rempel (01:04:28):
Right. Okay. So that's the idea. And that's spreading this around the country. It's the outcomes purchasing as a model of social impact and systems change.
Lucas Stewart (01:04:37):
And it didn't stick. Yeah. Yeah, it didn't stick. So I don't know. I we're not sure why, but it didn't stick. I got tired of selling something that people weren't buying. So since you've had that interview with Shaun, we didn't encompass for a long time. People didn't hear us. And so we decided, one last attempt, we tried to say it louder. So Shaun ran for mayor of Winnipeg.
Matthew Rempel (01:05:06):
And if I'm remembering my figures got around 20% of the vote.
Lucas Stewart (01:05:10):
Shaun did really well,
Matthew Rempel (01:05:11):
Especially for a candidate that has no history in electoral politics.
Lucas Stewart (01:05:16):
He's got no history in electoral politics. We tried to say that thing because win pick's cheap as well.
Matthew Rempel (01:05:25):
<laugh>
Lucas Stewart (01:05:25):
Notoriously, notoriously cheap. And we were fine with that. And we tried to appeal to that type of sensibility and we said, Hey, good news we have the resources we need what you guys are asking for because there's this cloud of fear that comes over the populace When politicians try to get reelected and start talking about crime, it's intense. Right? Right. And Winnipeg has
Matthew Rempel (01:05:55):
This very same issue.
Lucas Stewart (01:05:56):
We got this same issue. We have all kinds of stuff. And really the drivers around that cause people to commit criminal acts. They're varied, but they're actually reasonably predictable for the stuff that the population is concerned about. For
Matthew Rempel (01:06:19):
99% of crime, there is a predictable input that led to it. Instability of some kind.
Lucas Stewart (01:06:24):
There's an instability of some kind for a good chunk of it, right? For a good chunk of it. If you're getting your barbecue stolen out of the back backyard or your garage broken into, there's a reason why that's happening. And it turns out that there are, there's things that we can do that will reduce those things forever. And cops is only a very small part of that solution of the intervention. So our message to Winnipeg was we, and we tried to explain outcomes purchasing in terms of all the things that Winnipegs are care about or said they cared about. And we didn't say outcomes purchasing. No, because we, that's too high brown and it's
Matthew Rempel (01:07:16):
Policy walk language,
Lucas Stewart (01:07:17):
It's palsy wonky. But we said, look, we have $300 million <laugh> next year when the crime rate goes up by 2%, the cops are going to come back and ask for another 2%, which is 6 million. So like, Hey Winnipeg, do you think there are other things we could do for 6 million that would address 2% of our crime And crime going up by 2% is what the status quo is that we're betting on that we're banking on that we're going to budget for that.
Matthew Rempel (01:07:53):
That's just simple rates of population increase. The number of people here will increase about the same. So about the same. We can assume
Lucas Stewart (01:07:59):
That we that. Right? So the budget is 6 million. Can we do better than hiring more cops we think we can.
Matthew Rempel (01:08:12):
That was the bulk of the campaign.
Lucas Stewart (01:08:13):
That was the bulk of the campaign. And then you can also apply that to inf INF road infrastructure. You can apply that to Winnipeg has a fantastic world class like tree canopy. Yep. Right. What's the value in a tree? It turn for your property value at your house that is worth $10,000 to you. Your house is $10,000 worth more because you have a trio front,
Matthew Rempel (01:08:44):
Right?
Lucas Stewart (01:08:46):
In terms of home heating, you can just keep going. Oh yeah,
Matthew Rempel (01:08:52):
The knock on effects are huge.
Lucas Stewart (01:08:54):
You're not going to any of these issues, any of these issues. And we just said, Hey Winnipeg, good news. We have the resources we need. We're just go, we don't need to do a crazy big tax increase. We'll do what we have planned and we're going to get better results.
Matthew Rempel (01:09:15):
It just reallocated a bit.
Lucas Stewart (01:09:16):
We'll reallocate it a bit. We just think we want to introduce other options to achieve the same goals of transportation, public safety, environmental sustainability, all those things.
Matthew Rempel (01:09:28):
So it was a long and a hard fought campaign.
Lucas Stewart (01:09:30):
Long and hard fought campaign. Anyway, we lost that too.
Matthew Rempel (01:09:35):
So you took your shot.
Lucas Stewart (01:09:36):
So we took a shot and after it was intense, we, like Shaun, started early.
Matthew Rempel (01:09:43):
Oh yeah. <laugh>, right? He mentioned it in circles that I was aware of, a year and a half. So full year before campaigning properly started
Lucas Stewart (01:09:49):
And we ran a proper campaign. We had 50 pieces. There were four really large planks, but we had 50 pieces that were fully developed.
Matthew Rempel (01:10:02):
And Tom was going to the events, doing the speaking, doing the debate trail, all of that.
Lucas Stewart (01:10:09):
So that was really intense and I kind of wanted a break.
Matthew Rempel (01:10:12):
That makes sense. It's exhausting.
Lucas Stewart (01:10:15):
It's exhausting. And I was a little dismayed with the response from Winnipeg. I was dismayed with that. And that was us saying Elkins purchasing louder. That was as loud as we could possibly say it. And it didn't take, so I told Shaun that I just needed a break and I will always take solace in working hard at things that I can do and I can control. So moving over and working with an organization, the WRENCH, which has a great reputation, is doing great work, but in fact has been a little bit insular. And as an organization, they haven't been part of a larger network. They haven't been doing a lot of promotion and they have been at max capacity for eight years.
Matthew Rempel (01:11:21):
This story is all too common in nonprofits across the city.
Lucas Stewart (01:11:25):
So they haven't been able to figure out how to, they went from tiny to small and they haven't been able to break out as small. Right. And really they are medium
Matthew Rempel (01:11:37):
Based, the size of the space you were working in and the number of programs and activities that are going on. Yeah, absolutely. I would call it that.
Lucas Stewart (01:11:42):
Yeah. So I'm actually decent at doing that step.
Matthew Rempel (01:11:49):
The change between things,
Lucas Stewart (01:11:50):
The change between things going from Shaun is very good at going from absolutely nothing to tiny. Okay. And then I'm good at, I'm decent at going from tiny to small and small to medium. And those are the really fun parts. And then we'll see how big we can get it. And it can stay at medium for a long time or we can get other things going that also will compliment it. And that are, but are separate.
Matthew Rempel (01:12:22):
Yeah. I've noticed that there's lots of working on the network effects, trying to get engaged with other people who are doing similar but different work to amplify each other. I've noticed the work that you've been doing in that
Lucas Stewart (01:12:31):
Area. Oh, thank you.
Matthew Rempel (01:12:35):
Yeah. So, okay. That's really neat to hear because from when I'd heard you were taken the ED position, it didn't make sense to me, but it's nice to know some of the background. I appreciate that.
Lucas Stewart (01:12:43):
Thank you. Yeah, yeah. It's a worthy thing and it's a great place. It is a great place to work. And it's different, to be honest, coming in as a new, because they were fully developed and they have their own culture and they don't think I'm as funny as I do. And they have an identity that is still wrapped up in where they came from. So they were like three punks in a all three little punks in a all stacked up on each other in a trench coat pretending to be a non-profit. Right? Yep. Yeah. So they don't see themselves. They've had trouble identifying with other more established organizations.
Matthew Rempel (01:13:43):
So the culture is still stuck in that scrappiness, the culture hasn't caught up to actually being a sizable force in cycling community in Winnipeg.
Lucas Stewart (01:13:50):
But you guys won <laugh>, you guys won, you did really well and you're established and the stuff you were talking about, it's happening and other people are doing it. It's becoming accepted. What's next? What's next? And how do we encourage that continuation? You don't have to be like it's a punky anymore. So today today our membership application went in for the Winnipeg Chamber of Commerce
Matthew Rempel (01:14:24):
And part of the pond.
Lucas Stewart (01:14:25):
And we are going to, and it's still mission oriented, I'm to, we are going to use that network to increase our impact and they may need our help too.
Matthew Rempel (01:14:39):
Well, and going right back to the beginning of this conversation, that's opening it up to a different group of people who otherwise wouldn't identify. That's
Lucas Stewart (01:14:45):
Right.
Matthew Rempel (01:14:46):
Neat. Yeah. That's great.
Lucas Stewart (01:14:49):
Yeah, it's wonderful. It's fun.
Matthew Rempel (01:14:52):
Now there are two directions I'd like to go first talk more about those threshold problems. Talking about going from small to medium. What are some of the, or tiny to small, what are some of the common issues that are present in almost every situation you've dealt with? For me, the one I always think of is the point where you have enough work for other staff, but not quite enough work to pay for other staff. What are those kinds of problems that come up all the time? And is there a method you've used that works a little more than half the time? Yes.
Lucas Stewart (01:15:26):
Yeah, sure. That's very interesting. First of all, I would recommend just getting very clear on what you're trying to do and what you're good at. And
Matthew Rempel (01:15:37):
Striking into that value proposition. Finding the value you're
Lucas Stewart (01:15:39):
Actually offering, the value you're actually offering. And finding somebody who is valuable too, right? And just having a very positive working relationship with that person. And that can be a friendly entity. It probably should be to start.
Matthew Rempel (01:15:57):
Absolutely.
Lucas Stewart (01:15:59):
And you're going to make an agreement with that person that you are not going to fail. And that's the deal. You do not fail. You are allowed to make mistakes <laugh> along the way, but your agreement and you need to be able to look somebody in the eye and be like, we will not fail. And you are going to do everything you can not, that just is not in the cards. You are not going to fail.
Matthew Rempel (01:16:34):
So for the sake of people listening in, if they haven't done this before, they've never been a part of the crazy leap of starting something new on their own. Does it take any special education or knowledge to make this agreement?
Lucas Stewart (01:16:45):
No, it does not. No, it takes some, because what you're asking them to do is to have some faith and to take a chance on you. They have other options probably, and they would probably, but they're wanting something that you have or that you can bring. So they want to work with you. They don't to,
Matthew Rempel (01:17:12):
They want this other organization, this other entity to exist.
Lucas Stewart (01:17:14):
They want it to exist. They have a reason for supporting you. You want to be able to deliver that thing and you are not going to fail. And you need to make a plan on how that's going to happen just in case. Otherwise you're not going to sleep at night. So make that plan, understand why that is. And if you have to activate your fail safe, if that happens, know that might something serious is going to happen and you might destroy your company, but you cannot, cannot fail. And you're going to put in place all kinds of different strategies to reduce your risk, to mitigate to your risk. And you're going to set yourself achievable things. You're probably going to push your existing staff and probably yourself to 120% for a limited period of time for a period of time. And you just get everybody on board. You need a team that's willing to do that. And that's probably like, you need to do that with yourself. And it can't be forever because that's when burnout will happen. Just project on how long that will be and just tell everybody this is what's going to happen and that you need their buy-in and you're going to try to do something. You're just going to try to do something and it's going to be six weeks
(01:18:49):
And we're going to go to 120%. And the idea being that that's a a doable thing. And then make your plans and activate go because you really need to be, and by 120%, you also might need to run your money at 120% too. So you need your banker to be on board with, you
Matthew Rempel (01:19:18):
Know, got to have a buffer somewhere.
Lucas Stewart (01:19:19):
You got to have your buffer. Where's that hundred? Where's that 20% coming from? Yeah. And when it works, when you get to the other side of that thing, you can dial it back and you need to have a plan to be able to dial it back,
Matthew Rempel (01:19:34):
Of course.
Lucas Stewart (01:19:35):
But how you cross that bridge from nothing to tiny and tiny to small is you have to crank it to a hundred, 2020% for a limited period of time knowing that there is another side of it where you, we'll dial it back.
Matthew Rempel (01:19:53):
So if I were to make an analogy, it's kind of preparing for a marathon in advance when it's going to be you have a system in place to train, but then when it's happening, you go and the goal is just to hit that finish line after which you get to fall over and rest for a while. Yes.
Lucas Stewart (01:20:09):
You get to fall over and rest for a while and plan. So you just plan that out, right. Yeah.
Matthew Rempel (01:20:14):
And the other angle I want to ask is, in your journey to where you have come now, who are some of the people that have been the biggest influences on the way that you think about this or the way the work happens?
Lucas Stewart (01:20:30):
I'm not sure I've seen a lot of people when I was younger. Well, maybe it's more about how I value what I want, what I'm looking for in work. Okay. Maybe. Sure. I have a good one for that.
Matthew Rempel (01:20:50):
<laugh>. Absolutely. Take it however you want.
Lucas Stewart (01:20:52):
I traveled when I was in my early twenties across Canada and I volunteered and I met 20 adults who were well into their careers and all they talked about was the weekend. And lots of people had, they knew what their number was for either how much money their RSP needed to be at or when their pension was going to kick in, kick in or whatever. And they knew that number and they were really, really, really looking forward to it. And they didn't talk about their work. It was just other stuff they talked about. And I just didn't want to, they looked like they were trapped and they were not enjoying themselves.
Matthew Rempel (01:21:46):
They were just riding it out until they get the reward.
Lucas Stewart (01:21:49):
Yeah. And so I wondered why that was. And so I figure that they were trapped in things that they didn't like doing because they needed to have enough secure, they didn't feel secure enough. So I've done stuff in my life to make sure that I never have to do that. Yeah. So my lifestyle is a little simpler. I have one car and an e-bike and I don't have to stick, stay at a job because I have to pay off my couch. My couch doesn't own me. Own me. Yeah. That happened when I got married. We took out,
Matthew Rempel (01:22:44):
Oh, the initial furniture.
Lucas Stewart (01:22:44):
The initial furniture, we went somewhere and then got pre-approved for $8,000 worth of furniture and it came home. And then it took us five years to pay that off. And I hated that the whole time. And I'm like, I never want to do that again. So yeah, my house is, I live in a modest house and we, my friends bought houses. I remember my friends they bought a house in Waverly West with a 30 year mortgage when they were doing that. And this guy, nice guy. And he talked for 25 minutes on the qual about the quality and the complexity and the elegance of the molding around the doors and stuff. And I then he said his house was, at that time it was like 420,000. He, he's like, but I could afford it. It was 30 year mortgage. And I'm like, that's 30 years. And what happens if you stop liking what you're doing and you just have to, were like,
Matthew Rempel (01:23:59):
Yeah, it's the lifestyle lock.
Lucas Stewart (01:24:02):
Yeah. So my, I've chosen to do things that where I've organized my life so that I can do things that I'm really interested in and that I find that, and I don't have to be somewhere where I don't want to. So that's kind of nice.
Matthew Rempel (01:24:20):
So a combination of that level of security to know that if situations change, if all of a sudden you don't want to be building something new, you want to go and try a different executive director position, you can afford to do that to the keep enjoying the things that you're working on. Yeah. Cause life is too short to spend 40 between 30 and 50 hours a week working on things that you don't care about.
Lucas Stewart (01:24:43):
And I recognize that I've had a lot of luck and I have some privilege that has allowed me to make for that to happen.
Matthew Rempel (01:24:51):
Yes. I
Lucas Stewart (01:24:53):
Recognize that. I've feel like I've worked, I've made that happen though. <affirmative> part I've made, I've stuck to it. Yeah. It didn't because other, yeah, this is really getting on a tangent. Yes. Anyway as far as direction goes for how I work or how I make decisions some of that does emanate from conflict resolution training and how we make decisions as a company. If we're contemplating something new or something comes up it does provide some clarity to perform exercises. Just thought experiments to vision. If we go this way, what's that going to feel like? Or if we go this way, what's that going to feel like? And so it is helpful I find to do those, to spend some thoughtful time considering if we take this course of action, is it going to move us closer or further away from our goal? Is it going to make things easier or more complicated? And that kind of thing influences whether or not we get a new location, whether or not whether or not we get another mechanic, will this mecu make things easier or more complicated? And so in general, we shoot for closer to our target and easier
Matthew Rempel (01:26:33):
Way it should
Lucas Stewart (01:26:34):
Be the way it should be. And that kind of just when I say it that way too much to our people people find that calming and that I'm also open to being influenced on it. Explain to me I'm new. Explain to me how this thing that we've been doing it this way for a long time. I hear those other options. Explain to me how we are doing things. The easiest and most straightforward way.
Matthew Rempel (01:27:12):
Well easy will change based on the context that you have around it. Yeah,
Lucas Stewart (01:27:15):
Exactly. And tradition is not a good reason. <laugh>
Matthew Rempel (01:27:21):
Too many people are stuck because of tradition and
Lucas Stewart (01:27:23):
We've always done it. It's the way we've always done it. And that's fine, but you need to elaborate, finish that sentence. Yeah.
Matthew Rempel (01:27:29):
The moment it is just because that's the way we've done it instead of we've done it that way because Yeah. History or
Lucas Stewart (01:27:35):
Well, because it's something. Because it's the best way to do it. Sure. And by best we mean it's like the other ways movers make things more complicated. Yeah, it's fine.
Matthew Rempel (01:27:48):
So to end off, is there, for people who are coming into social enterprise, they're new to managing or they want to start their own venture, is there one piece of advice you want to leave them with one statement?
Lucas Stewart (01:28:00):
The important part is to try and the important part is to start and just start If you and plan on changing your plan and what that means, what that means is, what that means means is it's important to do thinking ahead of time and visualize how things are going to go. And then know that that is a process of renewal. Oh yes. Please do not stick to your initial plan.
Matthew Rempel (01:28:34):
It's probably not fully thought through
Lucas Stewart (01:28:36):
It. That is the, that's the worst. That would be bad advice. So you want to go out, listen, be observant, respond to what you find, and in if you find more opportunity, go for it. If you find less opportunity back off. Yeah,
Matthew Rempel (01:28:57):
I can definitely agree with that. I actually started doing this right now, work as social enterprise development. I help managers, I do help with marketing. I started doing photos for non-profits. Yeah. <laugh>. Just because it was a general communications help and yeah, you've got to change along the way. Yes. When things aren't working or when you find that it's not where you want to be. Finding ways to adjust. Absolutely. I definitely agree with that statement. Yeah.
Lucas Stewart (01:29:23):
Yeah. And the thing we'll tell you Shaun says is he, the social enterprise will start talking to you and he's not wrong. It'll be very clear as to what you need to be working on and you should do things like things that are working, do that more, and then things that aren't working try to do that less.
Matthew Rempel (01:29:45):
So it sounds so simple when you put it that way.
Lucas Stewart (01:29:49):
It is. When you think about it like that, then that's just if you were to explain it to a small child as to why you're doing something a certain way, just like that's how the crux of what you're trying to get across. I'm just trying to make it so that people in Winnipeg will make it so that they can ride their bicycle more often. Yep. Because it's good for everybody. So we're going to do, employ all the tactics and we're going to employ all the tools to be able to do so.
Matthew Rempel (01:30:27):
Alright. Thank you very much for coming and talking with me.
Lucas Stewart (01:30:29):
Yeah, I love that you're doing this and I appreciate the conversation
Matthew Rempel Voiceover (01:30:35):
And thank you for listening. If you liked this episode, please share it with somebody else. If you have any questions, comments, or concerns about this or any other episode, please reach out to us. Info strategy made simple.ca. If you have any questions about social enterprise, how to do it or how to improve your social enterprise, again, please reach out. Info strategy made simple.ca. And lastly, if you're trying to improve your marketing for your social enterprise here at Strategy Makes Simple. We are in the process of developing a course to properly show the value that you offer to your customers and how to express it to them. If you'd like to be notified when this course goes live, please fill in the form through the link in the description, and we'll make sure as soon as it's available, now as you go to make connections to figure out what's possible and then to do it, keep it simple.
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